Finskydningsgevær M 28 i Kaliber 6,5x58 ?

[skillest]

Hi everyone,

First off, sorry that I am asking this in English in a year old forum thread, but I'm a Canadian currently writing a book on Krag-Jorgensen rifles, and included in the book are all Danish, American, and Norwegian models of rifles, including the Finskydningsgevær M/1928 and the 6.5x58mmR M/1928/33. Little information on the Finskydningsgevær M/1928 and the later M/1928/33 have been previously published, and I was wondering if any of you would be willing to provide additional information or images which could aid in this research.

The only M/1928/33 I have seen outside Denmark and Norway is my own, and any additional information from fellow collectors would be greatly appreciated! I've been able to piece together some information from Schultz & Larsen archives and advertisements as well as some military information, but the whole story has not yet come together.

Mange takk!
- Justin

Here are images of my own rifle

[Ledsmoke]

Welcome Justin.
I hope someone steps up to the plate with more than just greetings.

[Scooterskytten]

Welcome Justin.
Glad to see you here as well.

We have talked previous on the 2 other forums you are a part of :) Let me know if you need any help translating or something like that.

[skillest]

Hi Mbechmann! I'll be sure to let you know, and thanks for the welcome everyone else!

So far, while researching the M/1928 and M/1928/33, and through talking to other archivists, I've found interesting links between early experiments with S&L and the army. Namely, the Army developed a prototype rifle called the Forsøgsgevær 1924 before the Paris 1924 Olympics due to both the shooting team requesting a rifle, as well as through a desire to add specialist roles to the Danish military. This 1924 rifle was known as the base of what would become the M/1928.

Folk have said that S&L was not involved with the development of the M/1928 for the military, and only sold the rifles to civilians. However, I have found archived advertisements for a separate "Model 1924" rifle sold by S&L (not the 22LR training rifle of the same name) which is the *exact* same configuration as the M/1928, but was sold between 1924-1927, before the M/1928 existed. It seems to have the same stock design, same barrel design, same diopters etc. I've also found reference in books about S&L which state they were involved in the process. I am currently theorizing that this 1924 model sold by S&L was based on the experimental model developed for the 1924 Olympic shooting team, and it was only a few years later that the Army finally adopted the rifle on March 3 1928 based on that rifle's design.

In addition, thanks to several other Danish researchers, I was able to get my hands scans of archived S&L advertisements and tournament listings. These advertisements discuss the rifle, which discuss shooters winning these competitions with the "gevær 1928". Many state shooters won their tournaments because of the Schultz and Larsen barrels installed on the rifles, which suggests S&L did indeed make the rifle barrel design. Early 1889 conversions also exist which have similar features but obviously aren't the same design. I've also found shooting club photos dating before 1927 which show shooters using the "model 1924", which supports this theory. I'll attach them to this post.

Now, when it comes to the M/1928/33, originally I was under the impression its designation was M/1928/31, due to older publications and references from the 1940s-1960s, as well as A.N. Hvidt's 1966 article about the M/1889 referencing the rifle as the M/1928/31. However, I've found other information from the army and from S&L which reference it only as the M/1928/33. Information about the development of the 6.5x58mmR cartridge says it was developed by the H.T.K. as the "M.1933" cartridge and was made for the "6,5mm Forsøgsgevær 1928/33". This seems to be backed by articles I've seen from the 1930s discussing the rifle's use in tournaments, and S&L advertisements for the rifle and for tournaments that were to be shot with that rifle, which all also reference the rifle only by this military designation. I find it interesting that advertisements for the M/1928/33, even dating to 1939, still call the rifle the 6,5mm Forsøgsgevær 1928/33, as that's usually seen as a common designation for military test rifles in Danish arms development.

Others I have spoken with theorize that the "M/1928/31" references another single-shot rifle that existed, perhaps being the model the M/1928/33 was based on, similar to how the M/1928 was based on the Model 1924. However, concrete evidence of this rifle's existence has not been found before 1933 through my own research. Also, this theory is countered by the cartridge's designation being of the year 1933, which suggests it could not have existed earlier. That being said, I have run into several Dana Vaabenfabrik advertisements from 1930-1932 which advertise conversions of M/1889 rifles to a "6.5mm" cartridge.

It is likely that this is merely referencing 6.5x55mm, as it was common for sports shooters to do that back then, but all of the M/1889 rifle conversions I've seen which were done by Dana/Jens Troelstrup from around 1910-1939 are chambered in either 8x58 or 6.5x58, and never 6.5x55.

What do you guys think? Do you have any other information that could aid in finishing the puzzle that is the development of these rifles?

[Scooterskytten]

Hi Mbechmann! I'll be sure to let you know, and thanks for the welcome everyone else!

So far, while researching the M/1928 and M/1928/33, and through talking to other archivists, I've found interesting links between early experiments with S&L and the army. Namely, the Army developed a prototype rifle called the Forsøgsgevær 1924 before the Paris 1924 Olympics due to both the shooting team requesting a rifle, as well as through a desire to add specialist roles to the Danish military. This 1924 rifle was known as the base of what would become the M/1928.

Folk have said that S&L was not involved with the development of the M/1928 for the military, and only sold the rifles to civilians. However, I have found archived advertisements for a separate "Model 1924" rifle sold by S&L (not the 22LR training rifle of the same name) which is the *exact* same configuration as the M/1928, but was sold between 1924-1927, before the M/1928 existed. It seems to have the same stock design, same barrel design, same diopters etc. I've also found reference in books about S&L which state they were involved in the process. I am currently theorizing that this 1924 model sold by S&L was based on the experimental model developed for the 1924 Olympic shooting team, and it was only a few years later that the Army finally adopted the rifle on March 3 1928 based on that rifle's design.

In addition, thanks to several other Danish researchers, I was able to get my hands scans of archived S&L advertisements and tournament listings. These advertisements discuss the rifle, which discuss shooters winning these competitions with the "gevær 1928". Many state shooters won their tournaments because of the Schultz and Larsen barrels installed on the rifles, which suggests S&L did indeed make the rifle barrel design. Early 1889 conversions also exist which have similar features but obviously aren't the same design. I've also found shooting club photos dating before 1927 which show shooters using the "model 1924", which supports this theory. I'll attach them to this post.

Now, when it comes to the M/1928/33, originally I was under the impression its designation was M/1928/31, due to older publications and references from the 1940s-1960s, as well as A.N. Hvidt's 1966 article about the M/1889 referencing the rifle as the M/1928/31. However, I've found other information from the army and from S&L which reference it only as the M/1928/33. Information about the development of the 6.5x58mmR cartridge says it was developed by the H.T.K. as the "M.1933" cartridge and was made for the "6,5mm Forsøgsgevær 1928/33". This seems to be backed by articles I've seen from the 1930s discussing the rifle's use in tournaments, and S&L advertisements for the rifle and for tournaments that were to be shot with that rifle, which all also reference the rifle only by this military designation. I find it interesting that advertisements for the M/1928/33, even dating to 1939, still call the rifle the 6,5mm Forsøgsgevær 1928/33, as that's usually seen as a common designation for military test rifles in Danish arms development.

Others I have spoken with theorize that the "M/1928/31" references another single-shot rifle that existed, perhaps being the model the M/1928/33 was based on, similar to how the M/1928 was based on the Model 1924. However, concrete evidence of this rifle's existence has not been found before 1933 through my own research. Also, this theory is countered by the cartridge's designation being of the year 1933, which suggests it could not have existed earlier. That being said, I have run into several Dana Vaabenfabrik advertisements from 1930-1932 which advertise conversions of M/1889 rifles to a "6.5mm" cartridge.

It is likely that this is merely referencing 6.5x55mm, as it was common for sports shooters to do that back then, but all of the M/1889 rifle conversions I've seen which were done by Dana/Jens Troelstrup from around 1910-1939 are chambered in either 8x58 or 6.5x58, and never 6.5x55.

What do you guys think? Do you have any other information that could aid in finishing the puzzle that is the development of these rifles?

First, about the S&L connection to the army. I can absolutely confirm that. But you need to go a LOT further back. Hans Schultz owned Otterup Rifles prior to it becoming S&L in 1916 (if I remember the year correct) when Niels Larsen married Hans Schultz daughter. Hans Schultz was trained/worked at the army laboratory in 1870s-1890s. Hans Schultz had a BIG hand in trimming the designs for Krags m89s and did have a hand in deciding that these were going to be the ones for the Danish army. His specialty was sights. Thats what he became famous for doing, and thats where Otterup Rifles actually started. He was modifying sights and barrels for target shooting. He was also one of the best shooters at the time, which made him a very good choice for figuring out improvements to rifles during development.

Fast forward to 1908. Hans Schultz was a part of the Olympic team - and the competition he was in was: "Shooting from 3 positions at 300 meters with military rifles" and "Team shooting from 300-1000 meters with military rifles". I have been able to confirm that he was shooting with a Krag m89 rifle at the Olympics between 1908-1924.

Now, here is the interesting part. For those 2 competitions above, you were NOT allowed to use a standard target rifle. It had to be a military rifle of some sort.

Add to that, that the rules for all competitions here in Denmark, didnt allow you to shoot with a magazine. It had to be single shots only because part of the competition was that you had to reload - and reaim. It was only at practice you were allowed to use magazined rifles.

Now, if you think of this. In 1908 you had to use a single shot military rifle for target shooting... Sniper rifle is born. My Krag m89 single shot was built in 1910 and it is 100% military. It has bayonet lock, and all the military marks. No private markings what so ever. This is the kind of rifle that would have been used at the Olympics in 1912... in fact, it was built specifically for that competition style. Mine also have a changed rear sight - which as mentioned earlier was Hans Schultz specialty.

The Olympic team also used these kind of single shot rifles in 1920 but they found out they were obsolete. So for the Olympics in 1924, Hans Schultz and Niels Larsen decided to start redesigning these target rifles - and the Sniper M24 was born. And the rest is history :).

So you are right. There are VERY close relations between the Olympic team and the military as well as Otterup/S&L. Its just a much longer relationship then you think :)

[skillest]

I did not mean to insinuate that Schultz did not do rifle conversions until later on, I understand he had become famous as a gunsmith and shooter by the early 1900s, and later S&L had been formed. However, I can confirm that neither Schultz or Larsen had any involvement whatsoever for the initial design of the M/1889, especially its sights, known as the gallows sights. All developments for the army's sights were done by Rasmussen, Madsen, Krag, and Jorgensen at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk during a trip in the summer of 1889, and most design features were taken from the past Rolling Block models and Madsens prototype semi-automatic rifle (which eventually led to the Madsen LMG). The sights later seen on several carbine models were essentially copies of the sight design seen on the Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen rifles, as the Norwegian M/1904/1907 carbines were used as heavy influence for the M/1889/12 and M/1889/17 carbines.

Now, development for other styles of sights for civilian use was influenced by Schultz as well as Larsen, and often the Army would test ideas from civilian shooters upon request. I have an article from the 1920s which discusses possible changes to the Krag sights as a result from testing by the Army based on civilian shooters suggestions.

Also yes Otterup was around for a long time doing conversions before S&L was formed. Those two were doing M/89 civilian rifle conversions alongside the likes of Jens Troelstrup and Emil Landsen, two other famous shooters and gunsmiths from Denmark. However they proved themselves to produce the better product, and due to their success in competition shooting were seen as those who could help in developing a precision rifle for the army, thus eventually resulting in the Forsøgsgevær 1924 which led to the M/1928.

The issue I've come to in my research is that not much information has been available about the actual trials and testing which led to these rifles, and even less is known about the M/1928/33 (or 31 as some sources call it), which is why I am asking here about information pertaining to those rifles specifically.

[Scooterskytten]

I did not mean to insinuate that Schultz did not do rifle conversions until later on, I understand he had become famous as a gunsmith and shooter by the early 1900s, and later S&L had been formed. However, I can confirm that neither Schultz or Larsen had any involvement whatsoever for the initial design of the M/1889, especially its sights, known as the gallows sights. All developments for the army's sights were done by Rasmussen, Madsen, Krag, and Jorgensen at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk during a trip in the summer of 1889, and most design features were taken from the past Rolling Block models and Madsens prototype semi-automatic rifle (which eventually led to the Madsen LMG). The sights later seen on several carbine models were essentially copies of the sight design seen on the Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen rifles, as the Norwegian M/1904/1907 carbines were used as heavy influence for the M/1889/12 and M/1889/17 carbines.

Now, development for other styles of sights for civilian use was influenced by Schultz as well as Larsen, and often the Army would test ideas from civilian shooters upon request. I have an article from the 1920s which discusses possible changes to the Krag sights as a result from testing by the Army based on civilian shooters suggestions.

Also yes Otterup was around for a long time doing conversions before S&L was formed. Those two were doing M/89 civilian rifle conversions alongside the likes of Jens Troelstrup and Emil Landsen, two other famous shooters and gunsmiths from Denmark. However they proved themselves to produce the better product, and due to their success in competition shooting were seen as those who could help in developing a precision rifle for the army, thus eventually resulting in the Forsøgsgevær 1924 which led to the M/1928.

The issue I've come to in my research is that not much information has been available about the actual trials and testing which led to these rifles, and even less is known about the M/1928/33 (or 31 as SOME sources call it), which is why I am asking here about information pertaining to those rifles specifically.

Couple of things. First, yes you are correct that Hans Schultz did not develop Krag m89s. That was me explaining it the wrong way. What I meant was that he was instrumental in CHOOSING the m89 as the army rifle. He was working for the army laboratory doing testing of rifles at that time. I read somewhere that he was test shooting around 10 different rifles over a couple of days, and the Krags were the best. After he had been doing the testing, he would give feedback to the people in charge from the army, and they would make the suggestions to Norway, and than it will be done. Thats what I was trying to explain.

Second detail. Otterup and Schultz & Larsen, is one and the same company. Otterup changed name to Schultz & Larsen in 1916 after Niels Larsen married Hans Schultz daughter. The joke was that he married the princess and got half of the kingdom. So Schultz & Larsen was not formed. It was just a name change. The problem becomes that some info can be found through searching for Otterup rifles - and some for Schultz & Larsen. Even after the name change, people still called them Otterup here, so that may be the way to finding more info.

As for the changing of the m89 sight. I think I know that article. I do remember that this is was also mentioned in the article about the Olympic target rifles Hans Schultz and Niels Larsen was working on developing for 1924. Again, they were competing in with single shot military rifles so they had to include the military in the same talks. From a military point of view, there had to be a purpose for these single shot military rifles for them to be included in this process. The article more or less hinted that S&L created the need for sniper rifles - by looking at the normal m89s sight as a first step.

As for Jens Troelstrup. As far as I know, what they were doing was changing Krags into Gun club rifles. They changed barrels (and caliber) and they changed the stock on them. The ones I have seen were stamped P (for private) and DANA. I have seen these both as single shots and with magazines. I dont know if they were getting out fazed military rifles, or how that worked.

As for Emil Landsen. I did a quick search, and came up short. Do you mean: Emil Frandsen? He was a gunsmith working out of a city 45 min from me - Vejle. There are other people here, who know a lot more about Emil Frandsen than I do :)

[skillest]

Yes sorry, Frandsen is what I meant, auto corrected on my phone.

Would you be able to provide any articles or anything about Schulz's involvement with working at the army laboratory during the choosing of the M/1889? From my own research, the decision was not made by the laboratory, and the only two rifles considered for adoption from 1886-1889 were the Krag and the Lee, no other rifles were considered between that time. This is also cooberated by archived letters I've read between the arsenals and the guns inventors, and the decision to adopt the rifle was made by the Small Arms Commission after feedback from troops trials.

However I don't wanna get too derailed from the main topic of the M/1928 and M/1928/33

[Scooterskytten]

Yes sorry, Frandsen is what I meant, auto corrected on my phone.

Would you be able to provide any articles or anything about Schulz's involvement with working at the army laboratory during the choosing of the M/1889? From my own research, the decision was not made by the laboratory, and the only two rifles considered for adoption from 1886-1889 were the Krag and the Lee, no other rifles were considered between that time. This is also cooberated by archived letters I've read between the arsenals and the guns inventors, and the decision to adopt the rifle was made by the Small Arms Commission after feedback from troops trials.

I think its the same info we have. I couldnt remember at the top of my head what rifles brands were tested, but I remember the number 10 where there were several different versions of rifles from the same brand. So it fits with your info that it was Lee and Krags they were testing - 5 each in different versions.
The laboratory I am talking about, is actually the arsenals laboratory. In Danish, they are just mentioned as Army Laboratory in the Danish articles.

The info about where Hans Schultz was working, was actually at the history page of Otterup rifles.

https://www.visitnordfyn.dk/nordfyn/exp ... gdk1109600
https://otterupgevaerfabrik.dk/historie.html

[Scooterskytten]

Forgot this link as well. You know the writer for this link here, right?

https://schultzlarsenclub.dk/schultz-la ... -historie/

[skillest]

I'd like to be able to take this information at face value but unfortunately I would need a source indicating that Schultz indeed had influence in choosing the rifle, and possibly what parts he had suggestions suggestions changing, and so far I haven't seen any significant evidence for it. That isn't to say it can't be true, I just wouldn't be able to include it in my book without knowing of its significance or knowing of the claims validity.

Also yes I have been in contact with the Schultz & Larsen club, unfortunately Jørgen Christiansen passed away last year I believe, so I have instead been talking to other members of the group who have been helpful.

I have also been discussing the subject with the authors of the 2007 book "Schultz & Larsen, Otterup Geværfabrik - Dansk Ammunitionfabrik A/S de Danske Rifler I Verdensklasse" who have not mentioned Schultz involvement at the army laboratory. I have also contacted the current Otterup Geværfabrik archives to gather more information, but not too much is supposedly available about S&Ls arms development anymore due to destruction of parts of the factory during WW2. I assume this is what has also made collection of information pertaining to the 6.5x58mmR rifles difficult.

[Scooterskytten]

I'd like to be able to take this information at face value but unfortunately I would need a source indicating that Schultz indeed had influence in choosing the rifle, and possibly what parts he had suggestions suggestions changing, and so far I haven't seen any significant evidence for it. That isn't to say it can't be true, I just wouldn't be able to include it in my book without knowing of its significance or knowing of the claims validity.

Also yes I have been in contact with the Schultz & Larsen club, unfortunately Jørgen Christiansen passed away last year I believe, so I have instead been talking to other members of the group who have been helpful.

I have also been discussing the subject with the authors of the 2007 book "Schultz & Larsen, Otterup Geværfabrik - Dansk Ammunitionfabrik A/S de Danske Rifler I Verdensklasse" who have not mentioned Schultz involvement at the army laboratory. I have also contacted the current Otterup Geværfabrik archives to gather more information, but not too much is supposedly available about S&Ls arms development anymore due to destruction of parts of the factory during WW2. I assume this is what has also made collection of information pertaining to the 6.5x58mmR rifles difficult.

I will see if I can find the article again. I remember I was reading about the Army Laboratory. I searched for info about that lab specifically. The interesting part is the size. It wasnt a big lab at all. We are talking 7 people in total. There is not a lot of info about what he did specifically but it does say he was working as gun smith and wood worker for the lab. One source mentioned that he was there at the range when they tested the Lee and Krags - but it doesnt mention what he was doing there. Later in the same article, it mentions that he was a really good shooter though.

As for Otterup Geværfabrik archives. You wont find a lot of info there. Today Otterup Geværfabrik is a concert hall kind of place, and lots of the info that use to be there, are long gone. I do have 2 other sources. 1 of them... well he did say it will take a LONG time for him to reply, but he is a good source. The other source... well he said: "I have a lot of the info you need, but I dont share it with everybody that comes along. I dont share it with rookies". He mentioned 5 rooms full of S&L original history paperwork from the old factory - but he did not want to share the info. So right now, I am in the process of proving myself to him.

As for that book. I have seen it - and I have been waiting for it to arrive to the local library. Its on the list of books I wanna read.

And yes. Jørgen Christiansen passed away last year. I wish I had had the chance to talk to him.

[Scooterskytten]

Just found this:

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammunitionsarsenalet

"Afdelingen Hærens Laboratorium, der før 1909 bar navnet Laboratorieafdelingen, var underlagt en direktør som chef og bestod af to selvstændige underafdelinger, Laboratorieværkstedet og Laboratoriekompagniet, under henholdsvis en underdirektør og en kaptajn som chefer. Efter Hærloven af 1922 skulle Hærens Laboratorium fremover være underlagt en oberstløjtnant (direktør) eller kaptajn (fortrinvis underdirektør) af linjen som chef, og sondringen i to underafdelinger faldt bort, således at administrationen blev forenklet. Som hjælpere for chefen blev påregnet to til tre officerer, en værkstedsingeniør, to korpsofficianter (en materialforvalter og en bogholder), fem andre officianter samt en del civile tjenestemænd m.m."

Hans Schultz was working there prior to 1889. This info if from after 1909, so it would be even smaller than this. In 1909 they were 1 captain/boss, 2-3 officers, 1 shop engineer, 1 accountant, 1 materials guy, and 5 adjudants and several civilians". Hans Schultz joined when he was in the army so he would be the shop engineer in this case.

[skillest]

Hey everyone! Just bumping this thread to see if anyone else can provide images or additional info on the M/1928/33 in 6,5x58R. I've got more than enough information on the regular M/1928, but not so much on the M/1928/33 other than forum posts with brief information on the cartridge rather than the rifle.

[larsen-22]

Good morning. I'm new to this forum. I'm Italian (I write in English because I'm better at it). I wanted to make my own small contribution to the discussion. and reply to Skilest (if this is not the correct way to communicate please let me know). I have a Krag Jorgensen 1928 built by Schultz Larsen in 22LR caliber. I attach some photos. If skilest needs more news or more photos, just ask.
greetings and thanks for admitting me to this forum.

[skillest]

Hi!

The more photos, the better! Feel free to attach them, if you don't mind!

[T-REX]

Good morning. I'm new to this forum. I'm Italian (I write in English because I'm better at it). I wanted to make my own small contribution to the discussion. and reply to Skilest (if this is not the correct way to communicate please let me know). I have a Krag Jorgensen 1928 built by Schultz Larsen in .22LR caliber. I attach some photos. If skilest needs more news or more photos, just ask.
greetings and thanks for admitting me to this forum.

Please create a new thead, for pictures of your 22LR Kragh Jørgensen.
And I really look forward to seeing that one.